Dear members of K’hal Nesiv Hatorah,
Please see the attached message signed almost unanimously by the Rabbonim of our greater community. I would like to elaborate and explain why we are sending this letter about the Vaad. (click here to view the letter from a previous post)
I wish to focus on the following points:
1. The importance of having one united Vaad:
Our Vaad Hakashrus of the Five Towns is unlike most other local kashrus organizations. In the New York City area, there is generally no unified Vaad Hakashrus. When one visits Boro Park or such locales, and wishes to eat at a pizza shop or deli, one has no information about the reputation of the vendor. He may see the name of the Rav hamachshir, but who is he? Is he to be trusted or is he qualified in kashrus matters? Our community is unique in that we have one unified hashgacha. When one enters one of our eateries and sees our certificate, one knows that the store is to be trusted. If a new hashgacha in Far Rockaway or the Five Towns is to be established, regardless of its qualifications, it will eventually destroy the Vaad as we know it. Anyone will be able to create a hashgacha and eventually some may be unreliable or untrustworthy. We need our Vaad to have the authority to strengthen the kashrus of our community. Therefore, it is of utmost importance that I ask each of our members not to rely upon any other hashgacha in our town. This is not for my benefit or for yours, but for the benefit of the entire community.
2. The argument that perhaps there is an advantage of multiple hashgachos:
One may argue that kinas sofrim tarbeh chochma. It is better to have many competing hashgachos to keep everyone on their toes. I don’t think that this is true. Firstly, I don’t think that the multitude of hashgachos in Boro Park has any relevance to the quality of kashrus there. I don’t think that nationally there is any recognizable improvement in quality of kashrus due to the competition of the OU vs. Chaf K or Star K. There may be competition between these organizations themselves in acquiring new clients, but not necessarily in kashrus. Secondly, competition here will likely have the exact opposite effect. Each and every vendor wants to save as much money as he possibly can. The costs for the vendor are directly linked to the need of more mashgichim on the premises. This often creates friction between the two. This competition gives the vendor the upper hand. He can easily find another hashgacha that suits his needs. There will always be someone willing to give the vendor a better deal. Simply charge less and provide fewer mashgichim, with the result being inferior kashrus. Thirdly, a multi-faceted kashrus organization has the wherewithdrawal to improve kashrus through technological advances such as the ability for our Vaad to install constant video coverage of the facility. This is besides roving mashgichim who constantly inspect the facilities on a daily basis. Many of the local Rabbonim are involved in the Vaad as issues present themselves. They are the eyes and ears of the neighborhood to bring any problems to the fore. Smaller hashgachos do not have all these opportunities.
3. Improvements in the kashrus supervision:
There is no perfect hashgacha. There are always improvements to be made in any hashgacha. The Vaad of the Five Towns is no exception. The Vaad was founded by Steve Savitsky and Moish Mishkowitz among others and is not a private business. It was and is a communal organization employed by dedicated personnel. Rav Eisen is a yorei Shomayim and an expert in kashrus matter with many years of experience, and is assisted by Rabbis Snow and Moshen. The roving mashgichim are all yorei Shamayim and experts in their fields. The Vaad is constantly working to improve its system and correct any problematic issues. Several new young local Rabbonim have joined the Vaad to help in setting policies for the Vaad and the Vaad is in the process of being updated to provide more transparency. Everyone will be able to clearly see what is required of each vendor. There is a database being formed from which all Rabbonim will be able to decide which vendor to recommend to their respective kehillos. For the last few years, I with the help of Moish Feldhamer, have established a Mehudar “list” so that each of our members can know which vendor we consider to be comparable to other “mehudar” hashgachos. Other Rabbonim have done the same. Many of these hiddurim have already been instituted in the general policies of Vaad and others are under consideration for adoption.
4. Ahavas Shalom:
In any communal affair, the satan appears and is ready to do business and destroy. These last few days has given the him a field day. Devious individuals have already stirred the cauldron. Private correspondence has been leaked to the public. Everyone relishes a good fight. Email messages and blogs fly back and forth, some with sarcasm, some with venom but all with lashon hara, rechilus and sinas chinam. Everyone has an agenda. This can chalilah very easily develop into a full-fledged machlokes. Let this be clear, the only ones who should be involved in this discussion are the local Rabbonim who will need to make decisions. Anyone else would serve himself well by avoiding machlokes, Hashem y’rachem. Please, dear fellow mispalelim do not join in these discussions. Do not read emails and blogs regarding this issue. Most of it is trash and stupidity, and all of it is lashon hara.
With much love and respect,
Binyomin Forst
So why does Rabbi Forst have his own list of which Vaad establishments he feels are kosher enough. They say his list is a list of establishments which meet Kehila Kashrus standards. (Rabbi Eisen’s other agency).
Why does the Vaad refuse to up their standards to meet at least the standards of Kehila Kashrus and other agencies in Brooklyn? Why doesn’t Rabbi Forst write how the Vaad gave him such a hard time and still will not allow him to release his list to the public?
We have a vast multi cultural community with many people wishing to follow different standards. Some want cholov Yisroel, Pas Yisroel and the like, while some do not. Some want Postive level/Rabbi Vaye standard veggies, while some do not. Why can’t those who want the better standard have a certification where they feel comfortable eating? Why do I have to try to secretly find out of an establishment is on Rabbi Forst’s list before eating anywhere?
Rabbi Eisen himself would not eat from many local eateries. He advises his friend Rabonim on the Vaad not to eat by many local establishments under his own certification. Why can’t we have an open honest hashgocho who caters to those who want to be mote careful? The Vaad will not even allow a store to label which shechita they are selling since all of them meet their standard. But what why cant those who want a higher standard be allowed to purchase beef locally? Why do we have to go to Brooklyn where they allow labeling?
Either allow a new hashgocha, up your standard, or create at least create. a Vaad Mehadrin.
Rav leibowitz said in his video the vaad relies on Rav Moshe feinstein Tesuhuva
What about the one no one should support a Reform or Conservative shul
Why does the vaad give hekesher to catering at
Temple north woodmere
Temple cedarhurst
Temple reform lawrence
Cong sons woodmere
Sephardic temple
And why does not all 53 rabbis sign and send a letter that no one should make simchas or enter those catering halls
I did not listen to Rabbi Leonowits, but if you are referring to Reb Moshe about Cholov Stam, that tedbiva is moot.
Not getting into all the details here, but there are two issues. Rabbi Belsky always said, as is apparent from the teshuvos themselves, that Reb Moshe was only writing as a believed when Cholov Yisroel was expensive and hard to get. Reb Moshe told people, even yhise who lived in far out places, to make sure to only eat Cholov Yisroel.
His heter was not written for a generation who spend $1000 on a phone and $100,000 on a Pesach program. Nor was it written so people can have fancy chocolates and yogurts.
In additon, as detailed by the Nirbater Rov, and agreed to by Rabbi Belsky, the actual inspections and precautions Reb Moshe wrote about are no longer in effect. Rabbi Belsky wrote that although Reb Moshe’s original heter does not apply, he still.belives it is permitted. Now it is no longer Reb Moshe, it is Rabbi Belsky’s heter which is not the same. And he said not to rely on it when Cholov Yisroel is readily available.
Any Rabbi who thinks Reb Moshe still applies is not up to date in the kashrus field and should not be involved in kashrus at all. This metziuschanged years ago!
for all of the tzaddikim, lamdonim, chachomim and yoidei ha’itim that know exactly what Rav Moshe meant and didn’t mean, and assure us that his landmark T’shuva was in fact not timeless, better keep your mounts closed and let us believe that you are talmidei chachomim, than open them and show us that you’re not.
As to the Vaad, its simple. They are a for profit business, as admitted to by Leibowitz, and any competition is a threat to their existence. simple and plain..
Regarding Cholov Yisroel, are you saying there is a real cheshash these days that pig’s milk is being substituted for cow’s milk, which was not the case in Reb Moshe’s days? Please elaborate on why you think things have changed.
To explain why Reb Moshe zt”l heter does not apply nowadays wpuld require an entire article by itself. For reference you can see here where the OU article is also referenced: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/448021/cholov-yisroel-versus-cholov-stam.html
Many argue with this new heter partly because the inspections do not take place in the stage when Chazal required the Yisroel to be there. Rabbi Belsky himself said one should try his best to only eat Cholov Yisroel, especially nowadays.
what was “R’ belskies heter to protect convicted child molesters and gazlanim? just wondering..
Thank you for the info on Chalav Yisroel.
With respect, I don’t understand: the Rabbi first insists that the vaad has the highest standards (and only a SINGLE hashgacha could do so,) but then explains his need for a mehudar list to be on par with the mehudar hashgachos elsewhere? Doesn’t that mean the vaad is currently not the highest standard? Indeed he actually says so later. It sounds very unconvincing to say the least.
Let’s all go tom and buy from 550 for shabbos
Things have changed in the past few years, and the whole heter of R Moshe doesn’t work anymore.
Anyways, this business of a new Vaad has it maalos and chisronos, so let’s keep our minds open.
The main issue at hand is the new rabonims experience in Kashrus. Where is it? U can be the smartest person but without experience you can easily be fooled. Aderaba if another hechsher that has experience comes in, then there is room to talk. Experience is a much needed aspect over here.
All the people saying that Reb Moshe’s heter doesnt work nowadays, have a good point. Maybe the metzius changed. But we can all agree that if you want to know what Reb Moshe held or holds, the person to ask is Reb Dovid Shlit”a or maybe Reb Reuven Shlit”a. They both say it still applies nowadays. So while you are correct that many rabbonim would tell you not to drink cholov stam, dont put those words into the gadol hador’s mouth.
Yitzi z,
You can ask Reb Reuven and Reb Dovid if their fathers heter still stands. Nobody argues that it still does if the metzius would still be the same. Although as apparent from the later teshuvos, and as reported by Rabbi Belsky ztl Reb Moshe felt very strongly one should be stringent when possible.
However, Reb Dovid and Reb Reuven shlita probably are not up to date on how the industry functions and the latest on the FDA policies. That was Rabbi Belsky’s expertise, and the expertise of the people involved certifying kosher foods like the OU. Both the OU and Rabbi Belsky wrote that b’metzius, the inspections Reb Moshe wrote about do not happen any more. See above article referenced for more detail.
since everyone here knows ex-ACTLY what Reb Moshe ZTL meant, please, all of you, stop what you are doing RIGHT NOW, and run to MTJ to remove the cholov stam products in their vending machine. Its clear that the honholoh there doesn’t read this blog, and thus are still silly enough to believe that the heter of the Nosi Hador still stands.
Highly doubtful they have Cholov Stam in their machines when Reb Moshe ztl wrote black and white that Yeshivos should not rely on his heter.
Even if they do, that has nothing to do with Reb Moshe. He hasn’t been there in a very long time.
Instead of accusing people of misunderstanding Reb Moshe, maybe take the time to read his teshuvos. Then do your research and you will interstate why the meztius is different.
At least take the time to read the article referenced above.
The issue of treifos is particularly of interest. No Kosher certified would ever allow animals with these procedures to be sold as Kosher beef. They consider them tereifos in accordance with a different psak from Reb Moshe. So why would they allow people to drink the milk from these cows?!? Its also cholov treifa!
Kosher,
The Feinstein family eats cholov stam till this very day. Anyone who watches Reb Dovid over the course of a day sees how many questions he gets asked daily. Many of these are repetitious with the same questions being asked over and over. Reb Moshe had a couple very famous tshuvos, for example the citywide eruvin, and also cholov yisroel among others. Questions on these famous “Reb Moshe topics” if I can call it that, get asked even more than other topics. I was once at a wedding with Reb Dovid listening to people ask him questions for 20 minutes, 3 of them were about the boroughwide eiruvin. I never asked Reb Dovid about cholov yisroel bec I see him using it, but I think it’s fair to assume that if someone somewhere had a tayna on the Heter because of the facts changing, someone would have asked him. The fact that they still use it doesnt tell me he doesnt know about the metziyus. If anything it would tell me he was unimpressed with the challenge presented.
Yitzi z,
Maybe what your saying is true, maybe not. If it is, you should ask his family what heter they rely on (if they know) since the metziyos has changed with regards to inspections and treifos. Maybe they have a new heter. Reb Dovid often does not go like his father and maybe in this case too he has his own heter. But Reb Moshe simply doesn’t apply anymore. That is clear.